Pros and Cons

[Buster]

Hi all,

Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.

I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.

So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?

All comments will be appreciated.

[Bill Garber]

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?
All comments will be appreciated.

First, this newsgroup only covers the Apple II line, not Macs,
and second, if you only have 5 minutes, you'll never be able to
cover it well enough to make people understand that Apple
computers and M$DO$ compatibles are so different that I myself
do not even attempt to make any comparison.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

[Mike Pfaiffer]

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in
comparison with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?
All comments will be appreciated.

Here are some general comments which you may find useful. Generally
speaking Apple was known for its innovation in the early days. The open
standard of the Apple// line allowed for third party developers to create
software and hardware for the machine at a low price. Eventually with the
advent of the Mac, Apple decided to go with a closed standard. Until
Apple aggressively went after shutting down the Apple// line the Mac was
not very popular. Through it's history the "open" machines from Apple
were always more popular than the "closed" machines.

Coincidentally when IBM made the first PC it used and stuck with an open
standard. Initially so did M$. The various *NIX environments are
consistantly open sourced and have open standards. Again this is one of
the reasons why the Intel platform is doing so well.

Lately the majority of innovation (related to the public interest) has
been on the various *NIX platforms. This is a reason why *NIX is gaining
in popularity. On the other side, M$ and a couple of other companies are
getting together to implement Digital Rights Management (DRM) and Digital
Rights Restriction (DRR). They change the name every couple of months as
people get more angry with what they are doing. In essence this means
third parties may not be able to create software/hardware for any M$
machine without permission from someone else. For example, you may not be
able to share your home movies with a relative in another city without
getting permission from M$. Limited implementations are currently in
Windows 2003 and will be available in SP2 for XP. From what I hear they
will fully implement it by 2005.

Later
Mike
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Digital Civilization magazine: http://www.digitalcivilization.ca |
| Call-A.P.P.L.E. magazine & BBS http://www.callapple.org |
| http://members.shaw.ca/pfaiffer = Mike Pfaiffer (B.A., B.Sc.) |
| See my web page before you think about spamming me. I charge cash. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK -----
Version: 3.12
GCS/G/IT/PA/SS d s+:- a? C++ UL L++ W++ N++ o+ K- w(---) O+@ M++@ V PS+
PE !PGP t+ 5+ X R tv b+ DI+++ D++ G e++* h! r-- !y-- UF++
------ END GEEK CODE BLOCK ------

[Jim]

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:31:47 GMT, Mike Pfaiffer

Post by Mike Pfaiffer
. On the other side, M$ and a couple of other companies are
getting together to implement Digital Rights Management (DRM) and Digital
Rights Restriction (DRR). They change the name every couple of months as
people get more angry with what they are doing. In essence this means
third parties may not be able to create software/hardware for any M$
machine without permission from someone else. For example, you may not be
able to share your home movies with a relative in another city without
getting permission from M$.

All of this is so wrong that it's not even funny. No one is going to
stop you from sharing your home movies! Where do you get this
bullshit?

Jim

[Mike Pfaiffer]

Post by Jim
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:31:47 GMT, Mike Pfaiffer

Post by Mike Pfaiffer
. On the other side, M$ and a couple of other companies are
getting together to implement Digital Rights Management (DRM) and
Digital Rights Restriction (DRR). They change the name every couple of
months as people get more angry with what they are doing. In essence
this means third parties may not be able to create software/hardware for
any M$ machine without permission from someone else. For example, you
may not be able to share your home movies with a relative in another
city without getting permission from M$.

All of this is so wrong that it's not even funny. No one is going to
stop you from sharing your home movies! Where do you get this
bullshit?
Jim

Then how would they be able to tell the difference between a home movie
and a tape/DVD rip? How would they be able to tell the difference between
the recording of a voice message and a CD rip of a song both recorded in
MP3 format? They can't tell the difference. What would be the point of
implementing the DRM if they couldn't control what went on a machine?

Then there is the matter of *who* is the one to give permission... If it
is the user then it's the same as not having the DRM at all. If it's some
third party then if the file name is the same as something in their list
then permission will not be granted. Why implement software which is
little more than a "toothless tiger"?

Since M$ has announced they WILL implement the DRM (several times with
different names in fact) one would presume there would be a reason. Again
one would presume the introduction of this code into the new operating
systems and patching older ones (Win 2K and newer) would mean this code
would be functional.

I may not have followed this in great detail, but I don't remember seeing
M$ ever say they were changing their stated position on DRM. All I
remember seeing is where they simply changed the stated name.

FYI, one of the names it went by was Palladium (or some varient of the
spelling).

Later
Mike
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Digital Civilization magazine: http://www.digitalcivilization.ca |
| Call-A.P.P.L.E. magazine & BBS http://www.callapple.org |
| http://members.shaw.ca/pfaiffer = Mike Pfaiffer (B.A., B.Sc.) |
| See my web page before you think about spamming me. I charge cash. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK -----
Version: 3.12
GCS/G/IT/PA/SS d s+:- a? C++ UL L++ W++ N++ o+ K- w(---) O+@ M++@ V PS+
PE !PGP t+ 5+ X R tv b+ DI+++ D++ G e++* h! r-- !y-- UF++
------ END GEEK CODE BLOCK ------

[Sandra Warnken]

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?
All comments will be appreciated.

I was in college when the computer of the day was huge and kept in an
air conditioned room. I learned how to use computers when my kids
convinced us to buy a used Apple IIe. Those machines were put in
school rooms when the kids were young.

We upgraded to a used Apple IIGS with an accelerator card and a PC
transporter. It was a fast little machine and could do a great deal
with the earlier 5.25" PC floppies. One of the things Apple does is
make compatibility with M$ software possible. However, I have bought
many Apple IIGSes since and lots of cards to use the flexibility the
multiple slots offer to create custom machines. I have an accelerated
business machine. I wrote program for withholding taxes using
AppleWorks GS spread sheet. It's simple enough for a not
mathmatically minded person to do. I have a machine set up for sound,
and a machine for video overlay and digitizing. The real beauty of
the old machines is that they are pretty sturdy and the software
created for them is awesome. At this stage of the computers life
cycle they are pretty cheap.

My kids grew up and went to college. They decided that the pc was a
better machine. So my hubby, who has never used a computer in his
life was talked into buying a pc. We had more trouble with the first
used machine he bought. We have to buy virus protection for the pc.
I was surprised at how much I was able to transfer what I learned on
the GS to the pc. We would have had to hire someone to help hubby
getting on the internet and so on.

Hubby bought a new emachine. It came up with a worm fairly early. I
can't begin to relate my frustration trying to figure out directions
for fixing the machine using the cd that came with it.

Of course I jumped from a IIGS to an ibook with two OS. That was not
fun because the software that was supposed to be OSX and OS9
compatible wasn't.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sandy

[Sandra Warnken]

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?
All comments will be appreciated.

One under appreciated difference between Macs and PCs are the users.
The Apple/Mac people I know and work with are friendly and helpful.
The PC people - which is tech support in hotels, isps and every where
else in the world tend to be more intense and self-absorbed. They dont
have a clue how Macs work. When I was trying to get help with the pc
problem I actually got more help from an Apple board than M$'s board.

Sandy

[Bill Garber]

Post by Sandra Warnken

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?
All comments will be appreciated.

One under appreciated difference between Macs and PCs are the users.
The Apple/Mac people I know and work with are friendly and helpful.
The PC people - which is tech support in hotels, isps and every where
else in the world tend to be more intense and self-absorbed. They dont
have a clue how Macs work. When I was trying to get help with the pc
problem I actually got more help from an Apple board than M$'s board.
Sandy

This is IMHO because Apple/Mac people for the most part are
computer people, where PC people are PC people. I have PCs,
Macs, Apple IIs, a C64, and looking for more. I just love computers
in general, and I think most other Apple/Mac folks are too, excluding
of course those strict Mac people who swear by Macs, and swear at
those who own anything else. That's my say, and that's all there is.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

[Buster]

Big thanks to everyone,

Your comments have been a great help.

Post by Buster

Post by Sandra Warnken

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in

comparison

Post by Sandra Warnken

Post by Buster
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix /

Linux?

Post by Sandra Warnken

Post by Buster
All comments will be appreciated.

One under appreciated difference between Macs and PCs are the users.
The Apple/Mac people I know and work with are friendly and helpful.
The PC people - which is tech support in hotels, isps and every where
else in the world tend to be more intense and self-absorbed. They dont
have a clue how Macs work. When I was trying to get help with the pc
problem I actually got more help from an Apple board than M$'s board.
Sandy

This is IMHO because Apple/Mac people for the most part are
computer people, where PC people are PC people. I have PCs,
Macs, Apple IIs, a C64, and looking for more. I just love computers
in general, and I think most other Apple/Mac folks are too, excluding
of course those strict Mac people who swear by Macs, and swear at
those who own anything else. That's my say, and that's all there is.
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me
---
This email ain't infected, dude!
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

[Joe]

As a favor to a friend who is still a little intimidated by computers, I
offered to update the PC from Windows 98 to Windows 98 Second Edition.

What a nightmare.

After installing the updated and supposedly better OS, I then had to spend
a few hours downloading the supposed fixes for the supposed better OS.

And, after downloading all those fixes and installing them all, what
should happen but a brand new problem appeared. My friend reported that
the computer wouldn't shut down properly. So, I just went back online, and
found that there's a fix to the fix to fix the problem that the fix didn't
fix.

BTW, the last time I updated the OS on my Apple IIGS, it took about 5 to
10 minutes.

BTW, before touching my friend's PC, I wanted to run some hardware
diagnostics, just to make sure. It took approximately 2-3 hours for the
diagnostic software to complete its task. Out of curiousity, I wondered
how long a modern Mac would take to perform diagnostics. I cracked up
when I saw that Apple's Hardware Tester offers 2 options...one that took
1-4 minutes, or a complete diagnostics that took 4-8 minutes.

So yeah, I still think that Bill Gates in the modern equivalent of PT
Barnum, and that Windows has to be the buggiest OS ever to be foisted
on the public.

But hey, I use a dependable computer built in 1986 (an Apple IIGS), so
what do I know? ;-)

Joe Kohn
http://users.foxvalley.net/~joko



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Ben Yates]

Post by Joe
As a favor to a friend who is still a little intimidated by computers, I
offered to update the PC from Windows 98 to Windows 98 Second Edition.
What a nightmare.
After installing the updated and supposedly better OS, I then had to spend
a few hours downloading the supposed fixes for the supposed better OS.
And, after downloading all those fixes and installing them all, what
should happen but a brand new problem appeared. My friend reported that
the computer wouldn't shut down properly. So, I just went back online, and
found that there's a fix to the fix to fix the problem that the fix didn't
fix.

Yep, I have the same problem. Most of the time it wouldn't shut down.
It seems to have fixed itself...
I am aware of the "fix" to fix the shutdown problem and it didn't work
for me either.
Now, I live with constant "Fatal Exception" errors when connecting to
the Internet after an Internet Explorer browser freeze and reboot
cycle.
I've tried removing/reinstalling Dial-Up Networking (DUN), only to
have the install give me a Fatal Exception right after the "You need
to restart your computer" box at the end. It fixed the problem, but
this cycle has happened about 5 times!!!
What could have caused it? Well, I downloaded "supposed" fixes - newer
display drivers, other drivers, and the fixes Microsoft provided thru
Microsoft Update (no, not the email virus! That would probably FIX
this machine!)

I'm about ready to chuck the lot out the door. I'm thinking of putting
my Commodore on the internet...

Ben

[Sandra Warnken]

Post by Ben Yates

Post by Joe
As a favor to a friend who is still a little intimidated by computers, I
offered to update the PC from Windows 98 to Windows 98 Second Edition.
What a nightmare.
After installing the updated and supposedly better OS, I then had to spend
a few hours downloading the supposed fixes for the supposed better OS.
And, after downloading all those fixes and installing them all, what
should happen but a brand new problem appeared. My friend reported that
the computer wouldn't shut down properly. So, I just went back online, and
found that there's a fix to the fix to fix the problem that the fix didn't
fix.

Yep, I have the same problem. Most of the time it wouldn't shut down.
It seems to have fixed itself...
I am aware of the "fix" to fix the shutdown problem and it didn't work
for me either.
Now, I live with constant "Fatal Exception" errors when connecting to
the Internet after an Internet Explorer browser freeze and reboot
cycle.
I've tried removing/reinstalling Dial-Up Networking (DUN), only to
have the install give me a Fatal Exception right after the "You need
to restart your computer" box at the end. It fixed the problem, but
this cycle has happened about 5 times!!!
What could have caused it? Well, I downloaded "supposed" fixes - newer
display drivers, other drivers, and the fixes Microsoft provided thru
Microsoft Update (no, not the email virus! That would probably FIX
this machine!)
I'm about ready to chuck the lot out the door. I'm thinking of putting
my Commodore on the internet...
Ben

Ah yes. I remember the failure to shut down and the fatal exception
message. Which brings up another sore point about PCs. If you have a
fatal exception you turn the power off to turn the machine off. When
you turn it back on, it goes through a system check because of
"failure to shut down properly". One really important thing about
M$OS is that the error messages may not have anything to do with the
problem the machine is having. The messages can drive you nuts if you
think they are pointing the way to fixing your problem.

One of my IIGS friends is a PC tech. He says M$OS is designed so
poorly that it drives the need for faster machines. People think
speed will fix the problems.

Sandy

[Joe]

Post by Sandra Warnken
One of my IIGS friends is a PC tech. He says M$OS is designed so
poorly that it drives the need for faster machines. People think
speed will fix the problems.

Aha! The reason I offered to take a look at my friend's PC was because I
heard the words that I'd heard many times before..."I'm having computer
problems so am thinking about buying a new one."

It seems like newbie computer users think the solution to computer
problems is to buy a new PC. As a long time, umm, power user...that
solution always cracks me up...because even with the old computer,
they're only tapping onto maybe 1% of the computer's potential.

And, with PCs, it just seems to me that when you go from a 1 gigahertz
machine to a 2 gigahertz machine, you just encounter problems twice as
fast ;-)

Gosh; just talking about PCs makes me appreciate my Apple IIGS even
more...

Joe


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Sandra Warnken]

If any research was done on the effect of owning a M$OS machine on
health, I bet it would have a significant correlation with heart
disease.

Sandy

[Bill Garber]

Post by Sandra Warnken
If any research was done on the effect of owning a M$OS machine on
health, I bet it would have a significant correlation with heart
disease.
Sandy

That was a lame statement, although I know you were
more than likely being fececious, I must reply. The
medical profession also claims a correlation between
stress, overweight, and smoking as a reason for the
rate of heart attacks, but in my family alone, more of
us who cared for their health died from heart related
illness than did those who were plagued by the above
3 medical excuses.
Also as has been stated more than a few times, the reason
there are so many problems with MS based machines is
that there are so many of them that it makes it a worthwhile
venture to go after them. I wouldn't be surprised at all to
find out that most if not all of the MS problems relating
to being online are caused by the underselling brands
companies themselves.
For example, I believe that many viruses are created by the
so-called Virus protection companies themselves, being
the new virus is usually accompanied by a new version
of a virus detection program. Make sense?
Anyway, had Apple/Mac had 95% of all the computers
in use, don't you think people would go after them as they
do MS based ones? Think about it.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

[Joe]

Well, if I used a PC on a regular basis, I'm sure it'd have a negative
impact on my mental health. I don't think I'd have the patience to deal
with such nonsense as downloading endless "patches" and fixes that make
the system less relaible and flakier than before.

As it is, I ended up apologizing to my friend for "updating" her computer.

Before upgrading Windows98 to Second Edition, I was asked if I wanted to
save all the original configuration, and I wisely did. But now, I'm
willing to bet, Windoze won't even recognize those files.

Oh well...at least it's given me ample ammunition to regale my Apple using
friends. In a twisted sort of way, Microsoft is quite amusing.

Especially when you think back to when System 6.0.1 was first released,
and ohmygosh, there were a couple of bugs. And, the patches for those bugs
actually fixed the problems! What a concept ;-)

My 2 hours with a PC was more than enough to last a lifetime. I'll stick
with my Apple IIGS, thank you very much.

Joe Kohn
http://users.foxvalley.net/~joko


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Bill Garber]

Post by Joe
Well, if I used a PC on a regular basis, I'm sure it'd have a negative
impact on my mental health. I don't think I'd have the patience to deal
with such nonsense as downloading endless "patches" and fixes that make
the system less relaible and flakier than before.
As it is, I ended up apologizing to my friend for "updating" her computer.
Before upgrading Windows98 to Second Edition, I was asked if I wanted to
save all the original configuration, and I wisely did. But now, I'm
willing to bet, Windoze won't even recognize those files.
Oh well...at least it's given me ample ammunition to regale my Apple using
friends. In a twisted sort of way, Microsoft is quite amusing.
Especially when you think back to when System 6.0.1 was first released,
and ohmygosh, there were a couple of bugs. And, the patches for those bugs
actually fixed the problems! What a concept ;-)
My 2 hours with a PC was more than enough to last a lifetime. I'll stick
with my Apple IIGS, thank you very much.

No offense to you Joe, but if people would spend more than 2 hours
on a PC, they might understand the inner workings of Windows and the
architecture of the hardware itself, and not need the updates/upgrades and
fixes. I have been running an original install of Windows98se for years and
the only problems I have are when someone decides to grab my IP address
and apply an IP crusher on it. BTW, There is a special upgrade file for
going from Win98 to Win98se. Using the Win98se install disk to upgrade
"will" cause all sorts of problems. The file is available on the MS Windows
site. Best to backup important data and installation files and install
Win98se
fresh anyway. Also, there are some worms out there that cause fake system
error dialog boxes to appear. The only fix for those is to replace the NIC
card
and restart the system. Nothing else will fix it. Oh, and people with no PC
experience and/or knowledge should just leave them alone. 'Nuff said?

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/23/03

[Ben Yates]

Post by Bill Garber

Post by Joe
Well, if I used a PC on a regular basis, I'm sure it'd have a negative
impact on my mental health. I don't think I'd have the patience to deal
with such nonsense as downloading endless "patches" and fixes that make
the system less relaible and flakier than before.
As it is, I ended up apologizing to my friend for "updating" her computer.
Before upgrading Windows98 to Second Edition, I was asked if I wanted to
save all the original configuration, and I wisely did. But now, I'm
willing to bet, Windoze won't even recognize those files.
Oh well...at least it's given me ample ammunition to regale my Apple using
friends. In a twisted sort of way, Microsoft is quite amusing.
Especially when you think back to when System 6.0.1 was first released,
and ohmygosh, there were a couple of bugs. And, the patches for those bugs
actually fixed the problems! What a concept ;-)
My 2 hours with a PC was more than enough to last a lifetime. I'll stick
with my Apple IIGS, thank you very much.

No offense to you Joe, but if people would spend more than 2 hours
on a PC, they might understand the inner workings of Windows and the
architecture of the hardware itself, and not need the updates/upgrades and
fixes. I have been running an original install of Windows98se for years and
the only problems I have are when someone decides to grab my IP address
and apply an IP crusher on it. BTW, There is a special upgrade file for
going from Win98 to Win98se. Using the Win98se install disk to upgrade
"will" cause all sorts of problems. The file is available on the MS Windows
site. Best to backup important data and installation files and install
Win98se
fresh anyway. Also, there are some worms out there that cause fake system
error dialog boxes to appear. The only fix for those is to replace the NIC
card
and restart the system. Nothing else will fix it. Oh, and people with no PC
experience and/or knowledge should just leave them alone. 'Nuff said?

I've only been using PCs since 1986, and have installed my share of
OSes. Maybe I don't have PC certifications, but I've been around for
more than 25 years as a computer owner. I am an ex-Systems Admin for a
real computer operating system - OpenVMS. And I am stunned at the poor
facilities for updates and the like.
Windows Update makes itself part of the problem. It doesn't identify
_all_ the updates required, like the software we used on the Alpha/VAX
systems provided by Compaq.
People from my era complain that newer PCs are used mainly as
"Internet Appliances", no longer as programming tools. I can't even
get the machine to work well as an "appliance". I wouldn't want to do
any _real_ work on it!

So, what do you do when your ISP won't fix a problem with their
application and tell you to install the latest patches and drivers? If
you are as experience as you claim to be, you know the number one
thing a network person blames a network problem on is the system
hardware or software - it never is a network issue.


Ben

[Joe]

BTW, There is a special upgrade file for going from Win98 to
Win98se. Using the Win98se install disk to upgrade "will" cause
all sorts of problems. The file is available on the MS Windows
site.

Bill - Could you give this PC newbie and volunteer-consultant a hint on
the file name I need to look for online?

Thanks in advance.

I guess GS/OS spoiled me. After all, if the Apple IIGS sports an "Easy
Update" option, silly me assumed that the biggest selling OS on earth
might offer a similar and dependable upgrade path.

Sorry...but when dealing with PCs, my irony meter goes off the scale ;-)

Joe Kohn




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Bill Garber]

Post by Joe

BTW, There is a special upgrade file for going from Win98 to
Win98se. Using the Win98se install disk to upgrade "will" cause
all sorts of problems. The file is available on the MS Windows
site.

Bill - Could you give this PC newbie and volunteer-consultant a hint on
the file name I need to look for online?

Joe, thanks for asking, and it depends on whether it's a store-bought
brand-name dependant system or not. I find that Dell, Compaq, Gateway,
etc....., all require install/upgrade CDs from the manufacturer. If the
system
is home-brew, like mine, then you can upgrade from Win98 to Win98se
with a standard CD, or update files from the MS/Windows site. If when
the system cold boots there is a logo screen with a manufacturers name
plastered all over it, then we have a problem. You'll need to request a CD
from the maker of the computer in order to upgrade the OS. It's a pain,
I know, and that is the main reason I have a home-brew. Of course I always
have. ;-) The only way to upgrade a manufacturers system to a home-brew
configuration would be to wipe the hard drive clean with a low-level format
utility and ensure that the original disks that came with the system are
NEVER
used again. I have also discovered that with some, DELL being one, that they
include right in the BIOS chip, certain byte codes that are written to the
drive
even if they are wiped clean and those MUST be loaded with the manufacturers
software OS or they will not boot. Believe me, there are x86 systems out
there
that I won't even touch with a 10 foot pole.

Post by Joe
I guess GS/OS spoiled me. After all, if the Apple IIGS sports an "Easy
Update" option, silly me assumed that the biggest selling OS on earth
might offer a similar and dependable upgrade path.

Well, if it's any consolation, I have the same troubles with GS/OS and
Mac OS, but that's again, because I haven't dealt with them long enough
to become familiar, and I doubt that I'll be much better on those in 5, or
even 10 more years. ;-)

Post by Joe
Sorry...but when dealing with PCs, my irony meter goes off the scale ;-)

That's ok Joe, I understand. I'd like to say all kinds of things about this
C64, but I know it's only because I don't have it all going right yet. I
will
though. The Apple IIs drive me crazy as well, but that's because I totally
abhor DOS command line of any kind. All is well, and Michael if you are
listening, I'm sorry for the nasty post. I'm a human being too.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

[Joe]

In comp.sys.apple2.comm Bill Garber <***@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

As a follow up, I found a URL at microsoft.com that led to a "fix" for the
Win98se shutdown problem. My friend downloaded the file, and reported that
the computer shut-down properly.

Which, kinda brings this thread back full circle...

A couple of hours on the PC make me really, really, really glad that I
have dozens of Apple brand computers here. As it is, I'm just not patient
enough to deal with Microsoft or their OS...

But, what do I know? I've only used computers for 25 years ;-)

Joe Kohn
http://users.foxvalley.net/~joko




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Mike Pfaiffer]

Post by Joe
<snip>

<snip>

Post by Joe
Which, kinda brings this thread back full circle...
A couple of hours on the PC make me really, really, really glad that I
have dozens of Apple brand computers here. As it is, I'm just not
patient enough to deal with Microsoft or their OS...

I know what you mean. DOS was OK. Kind of like Apples. The early version
of Windows was simple as well. Either it worked or it didn't (my solution
there was OS/2). Starting with 95 I found I had less control over what I
needed to control. There was (and is) too much abstraction/complexity.
Personally, after a couple of years with *NIX I'm almost as happy as I
was with my Apples. There are still problems, but nothing I cant fix
myself or have the authors fix.

Post by Joe
But, what do I know? I've only used computers for 25 years ;-)

You got me beat. I started in 82-83. It was a computer mapping course.

Post by Joe
Joe Kohn
http://users.foxvalley.net/~joko

Later
Mike
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Digital Civilization magazine: http://www.digitalcivilization.ca |
| Call-A.P.P.L.E. magazine & BBS http://www.callapple.org |
| http://members.shaw.ca/pfaiffer = Mike Pfaiffer (B.A., B.Sc.) |
| See my web page before you think about spamming me. I charge cash. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK -----
Version: 3.12
GCS/G/IT/PA/SS d s+:- a? C++ UL L++ W++ N++ o+ K- w(---) O+@ M++@ V PS+
PE !PGP t+ 5+ X R tv b+ DI+++ D++ G e++* h! r-- !y-- UF++
------ END GEEK CODE BLOCK ------

[Bill Garber]

Post by Joe
<snip>
As a follow up, I found a URL at microsoft.com that led to a "fix" for the
Win98se shutdown problem. My friend downloaded the file, and reported that
the computer shut-down properly.

That's great.

Post by Joe
Which, kinda brings this thread back full circle...
A couple of hours on the PC make me really, really, really glad that I
have dozens of Apple brand computers here. As it is, I'm just not patient
enough to deal with Microsoft or their OS...
But, what do I know? I've only used computers for 25 years ;-)

I learned on punched cards and teletype in the late 60's.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/03

[Joe]

Post by Bill Garber

Post by Joe
But, what do I know? I've only used computers for 25 years ;-)

I learned on punched cards and teletype in the late 60's.

Hmmm...I guess I really meant to say...I've used microcomputers for 25
years.

In what seems now like another lifetime, I had to take a computer class in
1972, in order to get my BS. Actually, the class was on BASIC, and we used
terminals without monitors, and everything got printed on a teletype-like
printer. Back then, it was a big deal when someone came up with a program
that printed an ASCII caricature from Star Trek ;-)

And, what's amused me much over the years...I've taken one more computer
class than many of the programmers whose software I've published ;-)

Joe Kohn
http://users.foxvalley.net/~joko


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Bill Garber]

Post by Joe

BTW, There is a special upgrade file for going from Win98 to
Win98se. Using the Win98se install disk to upgrade "will" cause
all sorts of problems. The file is available on the MS Windows
site.

Bill - Could you give this PC newbie and volunteer-consultant a hint on
the file name I need to look for online?
Thanks in advance.

Here also is a page you can go to for access numbers and
such for the brand name computers.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh%3Ben-us%3Boemphone&LN=EN-U
S&x=12&y=11

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

[Rubywand]

Sandra Warnken writes ...

Post by Sandra Warnken
If any research was done on the effect of owning a M$OS machine on
health, I bet it would have a significant correlation with heart
disease.

....


Bet you're right, Sandy. And you can add whole lists of new curse words
invented during Win installations.


Rubywand

[Bill Garber]

Post by Rubywand
Sandra Warnken writes ...

Post by Sandra Warnken
If any research was done on the effect of owning a M$OS machine on
health, I bet it would have a significant correlation with heart
disease.

....
Bet you're right, Sandy. And you can add whole lists of new curse words
invented during Win installations.
Rubywand

True, and I have all 783 pages documented. Still haven't used
all of the words in it, but I'm working on it. ;-)

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/7/03

[Rubywand]

Bill Garber writes ...

Post by Bill Garber

Post by Rubywand
Sandra Warnken writes ...

Post by Sandra Warnken
If any research was done on the effect of owning a M$OS machine on
health, I bet it would have a significant correlation with heart
disease.

....
Bet you're right, Sandy. And you can add whole lists of new curse
words invented during Win installations.
Rubywand

True, and I have all 783 pages documented. Still haven't used
all of the words in it, but I'm working on it. ;-)

....

Great!

I can see why it would take up 783 pages-- lots of long compound words.


Rubywand

[Joe]

Post by Ben Yates
I'm about ready to chuck the lot out the door. I'm thinking of putting
my Commodore on the internet...

I have a Mac and a PC, but 99.9999% of the time, I use my Apple IIGS. With
access to a dial-up shell account, I don't have to worry about getting a
virus, and using VT-100 emulation, my 14.4 modem is more than fast enough.

As far as Microsoft fixes that don't fix anything, I dunno, it's like
there's no justice in the world. I read somewhere that each release of
Windows has had something like 2,000 bugs.

And, to think...after "updating" my friend's computer, I actually thought
that the 20 megabyte "service pack" download might have actually addressed
some of those bugs, but...

Oh well. After using a computer for 25 years, at least Bill Gates does
provide me with a laugh every once in a while. Then again, if I used a
PC, Windoze probably wouldn't be a laughing matter.

Joe Kohn
http://users.foxvalley.net/~joko <--- Bug-free IIGS software ;-)

Joe


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Ben Yates]

Post by Joe
I have a Mac and a PC, but 99.9999% of the time, I use my Apple IIGS. With
access to a dial-up shell account, I don't have to worry about getting a
virus, and using VT-100 emulation, my 14.4 modem is more than fast enough.

Dial-up shell account? What is that? <BG>
I know what they are, but there are very few these days. Where is
yours located? What is the pricing?

DOES ANYONE ANYWHERE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE ONE CAN FIND A LIST OF
DIAL-UP SHELL ACCOUNTS?

Sorry for the yelling, but no-one ever seems to hear me when I ask
that simple little question...

Ben

[Bill Garber]

Post by Ben Yates

Post by Joe
I have a Mac and a PC, but 99.9999% of the time, I use my Apple IIGS. With
access to a dial-up shell account, I don't have to worry about getting a
virus, and using VT-100 emulation, my 14.4 modem is more than fast enough.

Dial-up shell account? What is that? <BG>
I know what they are, but there are very few these days. Where is
yours located? What is the pricing?
DOES ANYONE ANYWHERE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE ONE CAN FIND A LIST OF
DIAL-UP SHELL ACCOUNTS?
Sorry for the yelling, but no-one ever seems to hear me when I ask
that simple little question...

Don't despair Ben, just do a Google search for
"Dial-up Shell Accounts". I just did and I got
quite a bunch of them.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - ***@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/03

[Joe]

Post by Ben Yates
DOES ANYONE ANYWHERE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE ONE CAN FIND A LIST OF
DIAL-UP SHELL ACCOUNTS?
Sorry for the yelling, but no-one ever seems to hear me when I ask
that simple little question...

Wait a second. I periodically post about the availability of a dial-up
Shell acct, but no one ever seems to be interested ;-)

There's quite a few of us Apple II users who have accts with
foxvalley.net. It's a small 'ma and pa' type of ISP, located near Chicago,
but they have access numbers everywhere. I live just north of San
Francisco, and I have 2 or 3 local access numbers I can call.

All the info is at www.foxvalley.net

I pre-pay 6 months at a time, so my cost is either $16 or $17 a month.
I've been using foxvalley.net for a few years, and am basically happy with
it. Things go wrong on occassion, but they always seem to get fixed with a
quick phone call to tech support. Considering that only 1% of their
customers use the shell, I'd say that foxvalley.net is quite attentive to
our needs.

And, you get the best of both worlds, as along with the Unix Shell, you
also get PPP access so you can use a Mac or PC and Explorer/Netscape.

Oh...and when you call, you won't be laughed at when you tell 'em you use
an Apple II. Whenever I call to report a problem, I just say that I'm one
of the Apple II users, and they understand ;-)

Joe



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Mike Pfaiffer]

Post by Ben Yates

Post by Joe
I have a Mac and a PC, but 99.9999% of the time, I use my Apple IIGS.
With access to a dial-up shell account, I don't have to worry about
getting a virus, and using VT-100 emulation, my 14.4 modem is more than
fast enough.

Dial-up shell account? What is that? <BG>
I know what they are, but there are very few these days. Where is
yours located? What is the pricing?
DOES ANYONE ANYWHERE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE ONE CAN FIND A LIST OF
DIAL-UP SHELL ACCOUNTS?
Sorry for the yelling, but no-one ever seems to hear me when I ask
that simple little question...
Ben

The other messages in the thread are good alternatives. Here is another.
If you have a spare PC or Mac you can install some form of *NIX on it.
From there use a nullmodem cable from your Apple to your *NIX machine and
voila... A shell account under your control. If you want net access you
can connect your *NIX box to the net and access it that way. Some ISPs
are nasty to people running "servers". Ask them first (nicely) and they
may give you a hand.

Later
Mike
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Digital Civilization magazine: http://www.digitalcivilization.ca |
| Call-A.P.P.L.E. magazine & BBS http://www.callapple.org |
| http://members.shaw.ca/pfaiffer = Mike Pfaiffer (B.A., B.Sc.) |
| See my web page before you think about spamming me. I charge cash. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK -----
Version: 3.12
GCS/G/IT/PA/SS d s+:- a? C++ UL L++ W++ N++ o+ K- w(---) O+@ M++@ V PS+
PE !PGP t+ 5+ X R tv b+ DI+++ D++ G e++* h! r-- !y-- UF++
------ END GEEK CODE BLOCK ------

[Exegete]

Post by Ben Yates

Post by Joe
I have a Mac and a PC, but 99.9999% of the time, I use my Apple IIGS. With
access to a dial-up shell account, I don't have to worry about getting a
virus, and using VT-100 emulation, my 14.4 modem is more than fast enough.

Dial-up shell account? What is that? <BG>
I know what they are, but there are very few these days. Where is
yours located? What is the pricing?
DOES ANYONE ANYWHERE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE ONE CAN FIND A LIST OF
DIAL-UP SHELL ACCOUNTS?

InternetNebraska.com

Roy

Post by Ben Yates
Sorry for the yelling, but no-one ever seems to hear me when I ask
that simple little question...
Ben

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Rubywand]

Buster writes ...

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?

....

Agree with Mike Pfaiffer about the significance of Apple II's open, Slots,
architecture. You had a machine that promised to expand and keep you on the
'leading edge' of technology (for, at least, a few years).

IBM's PC took the open architecture model to self-destructive extremes.
The Apple II came with a fairly extensive monitor plus BASIC in ROM. Adding DOS
3.3 on disk gave Apple a fairly strong proprietary grip on the platform. The PC
was much closer to being a 'pure machine' right out of the Intel 8088/8086 uP
manual.

The PC platform turned out to be a problem for all of the big computer
makers of the time, including IBM. By the end of the 1980's, PC/AT was the
standard platform and everybody, from small shops through Compaq, was making
PC's. (There's more about this development in the FAQs History pages at
http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2HISTORY2.html .)


Apple's biggest mistake was it's emphasis on hardware. Had it released a
for-PC version of its mouse-and-windows Mac/IIgs OS in the 1980's, Apple would
be where Microsoft is now.

[Exegete]

I'm not trying to pick on Rubywand, but it's getting a bit tiresome to
see this thread reposted in each Apple II newsgroup.

Can the cross threading stop now?

Roy

Post by Rubywand
Buster writes ...

Post by Buster
Hi all,
Im currently preparing to give a brief 5 minute presentation on Apple
computers, the history and how it compares to the likes of Microsoft and
Linux / Unix. I have constructed a bit about the hisotry of Apple but I
also need to do a section on the pros and cons of Apple PC's in comparison
with the likes of Windows and Unix.
I would like the opinion in this area from actual Apple users instead of
just what Apple say.
So, what do you think?...is Apple supperior to Microsoft and Unix / Linux?

....
Agree with Mike Pfaiffer about the significance of Apple II's open, Slots,
architecture. You had a machine that promised to expand and keep you on the
'leading edge' of technology (for, at least, a few years).
IBM's PC took the open architecture model to self-destructive extremes.
The Apple II came with a fairly extensive monitor plus BASIC in ROM. Adding DOS
3.3 on disk gave Apple a fairly strong proprietary grip on the platform. The PC
was much closer to being a 'pure machine' right out of the Intel 8088/8086 uP
manual.
The PC platform turned out to be a problem for all of the big computer
makers of the time, including IBM. By the end of the 1980's, PC/AT was the
standard platform and everybody, from small shops through Compaq, was making
PC's. (There's more about this development in the FAQs History pages at
http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2HISTORY2.html .)
Apple's biggest mistake was it's emphasis on hardware. Had it released a
for-PC version of its mouse-and-windows Mac/IIgs OS in the 1980's, Apple would
be where Microsoft is now.

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Rubywand]

Exegete writes ...

Post by Exegete
I'm not trying to pick on Rubywand, but it's getting a bit tiresome to
see this thread reposted in each Apple II newsgroup.
Can the cross threading stop now?
Roy

....

Feel free to pick away. Mainly agree. I've removed marketplace and
programmer because they are active groups.

It's probably a good idea to include comm and gno because they are not
very active. Getting postings helps to keep them from being scrapped and gives
newbies who might go to those places a link to more active Csa2 areas.


Rubywand